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Old 02-08-2013, 11:00   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggeorg
Btw, among the "other" creditors, that forgave part of the debts, there are sure people that are more "family" than the players, like local people that work for Deportivo since ages.
not to mention, that there can be a lot of Deportivistas among the private persons and company employees, who proudly worked for the club (maybe even on discounted prices), and the whole forgiving action is might have been based on their kind Deportivismo (admins and Lendoiro: hey driver, cleaner company, Hotel Liceo Managament! are you mad, would you sue us, your beloved club? rather give us 33% more discount, we don't pay you anything in the next 4 years, but you can at least attend Segunda matches every second week in the mean time in the uncleaned Riazor. You would never like to send us to SegB, would you?).

We are talking about the Xosés, Xoans, and Xurxos against the Evaldos, Nelson O.s, and Aythamis. Xosé made the 33% forgiveness, Thiago Pinto not.

I don't think I can ever come over this. For the (Ex-)Fabril players with their 10-20.000EUR per year salary I can accept anything, but the oldish legends with their Euro (half-)millions earned in the previous years, not.

I have some personal motivation to be so die-hard, and I know others here are effected similar way, or even worse
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:49   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
......I don't think I can ever come over this...

...I have some personal motivation to be so die-hard, and I know others here are effected similar way, or even worse

Cool, Kalman. You're a man of principles and I admire that.
When are we going to Coruna to meet Xose and talk for hours over some beers and seafood?

@Rik: why would you stop short of blaming the other creditors for their own mismanagement? I'm talking about those creditors not directly linked to Depor here.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:11   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rack
When are we going to Coruna to meet Xose and talk for hours over some beers and seafood?
right after the 10%+10% forgiving agreement is over at the company I work for. including the players there. thanks for the invitation, I appreciate that.
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:01   #34
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The thing that bothers me the most is the "privileged debt". Kalman you said everybody accepted the debt reduction, well the banks didn't. When also the privileged debt would have been reduced by 33% than I would agree completely that the players needed to accept the 33% reduction without any reprograming or shares: just plane reduction.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:33   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggeorg
Btw, among the "other" creditors, that forgave part of the debts, there are sure people that are more "family" than the players, like local people that work for Deportivo since ages.


For me, as soon as the club went into administration the "other" creditors had no chance to receive their debt in full.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggeorg
It is bad for the local community that the club creates this image of a non-trust company.

Yes for sure,

For example, Autocares Vazquez SA who are owed approx 40.000 EUR, will have to cover this as a bad debt or lay off various members of staff. This company ferried kids from the city centre to Abegondo daily which I have witnessed from the Riazor. This service has now stopped (Carlos wrote something on this but cannot find it now ) and the club have asked parents to drive 23km to the training ground daily.
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Old 02-08-2013, 16:26   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iztok
The thing that bothers me the most is the "privileged debt". Kalman you said everybody accepted the debt reduction, well the banks didn't.
that is neither an excuse for the players, nor that sure.
http://www.deportivo-la-coruna.com/n-news.php?cid=5346
5- The privileged debt will maintain its status with the exception of the interests charged by the Tax Agency and one credit from Novagalicia Banco for €12.7 million.
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Old 02-08-2013, 16:27   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rack
@Rik: why would you stop short of blaming the other creditors for their own mismanagement? I'm talking about those creditors not directly linked to Depor here.

Without knowing how these debts were exactly accrued and the contracts between the 2 it's hard to pinpoint on how much "mismanagement" each of these creditors are guilty of.

For example, a lot of contracts (I would say most) are not paid in advance of the work done. Bigger companies especially can demand that they should get 90 days before payment is due after an invoice issued. If after 90 days the company then decides that it can't/won't pay that can be a whole lot of money owed that has built up. To be fair, I have no idea how much the cleaning company for example charges to clean for 90 days or how much Depor could rack up in bills at a hotel in that time period but the very nature of business done in this way means that if it goes tits up, a lot of companies (particularly the smaller companies) are going to get hit pretty hard and I just think it's really harsh (not to mention ironic) to accuse them of mismanagement because Depor can't or won't pay them.

To be honest, although the principles are the same for whatever the size of the company owed money by Depor, it's the smaller family run companies that I have most sympathy with. My wife's family have a small business and they've been hit hard a couple of times by much bigger firms they were reliant on getting paid by, who quite honestly probably knew they couldn't pay when they took out the work. I've seen the stress (mentally and physically) that can cause, having to tell your workforce that you can't afford to pay them all their wages, or let people go to cut costs or even worry about your business folding and wondering if you'll be able to still live in the house that used for collatteral. If you're particularly reliant on one or more clients fulfilling their obligations and you've done the work, I think it's only fair that you get paid and if you don't, I just think it's a bit harsh to be accused of mismanagement, especially when in this case it's a much bigger companies complete incompetence that is responsible for your predicament.

Sure, some of these companies may very well be responsible of a certain level of mismanagement but how do you or I know which and why? Imo you've generalised them all and that's not something that I would wish to do, hence why I said I would stop short of saying they deserve to pay the consequences and don't deserve any sympathy. Maybe I'm just a little pussycat but I do have some sympathy and some empathy with some of these companies.

As for the players, they are like mini companies too, who did their job and didn't get paid. The only difference is, they had a safety net in the AFE and LFP but principally, the fact that they were owed money should mean that they too shouldn't be deserving of any sympathy and deserved to pay the consequences.
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:00   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
that is neither an excuse for the players, nor that sure.
http://www.deportivo-la-coruna.com/n-news.php?cid=5346
5- The privileged debt will maintain its status with the exception of the interests charged by the Tax Agency and one credit from Novagalicia Banco for €12.7 million.

Well it still doesn't say that all of the privileged debt will be reduced. Just the interests form tax and one banks. What about all the rest, we are still talking about a big share of the debt.

I am also defending players in a very simple sense - without players there is no supporters, coach, presidents, staff, contract for other companies, etc.
Deportivo is a football club, so footballers are the core. They for sure have to face the consequence as do the others....but here I return to my original point, not all do face the same consequence.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:20   #39
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It is not clear whether the interest of the bank, or the debts of banks is forgiven. I say the second. But if not, then I agree with you, Iztok, our players are on the same, mercenary level as the banks. Is this all right for you?

Without players no supporters? Footballers are the core? No-no-no. The supporters are the core, they are the first. Arifueras are coming and going, ex-Celta-coaches are coming and going, but the supporters (and unfortunately the presi) are the ones that stay until the end of time.

To Rik: I feel with Angela, I know what you wrote about. Respect...
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:37   #40
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Yes that would be allright by me. I am glad we agree

OK, I did write the bit about "core" a little strange. I ment that they are the core for the bussiness, I totally agree that without fans there is no football team. And also that the voice of the supporters should be heard and primaraly acknowledged by all parties involved in a sporting unit, including the players. Like I said the thing that bothered me is that all the fault was written to the players, while the bigger debtors had a lot of time to resolve the situation, but didn't do so and in the end pointing the finger to the players for a probable demotion and/or liquidation.
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Old 05-08-2013, 14:44   #41
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I think the thing was that you would naively await for a much more club-loyal mentality from the players than from the banks.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:46   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
Without players no supporters? Footballers are the core? No-no-no. The supporters are the core, they are the first. Arifueras are coming and going, ex-Celta-coaches are coming and going, but the supporters (and unfortunately the presi) are the ones that stay until the end of time.

you do realize that without the players... You and I are just watching the grass grow every week. it's a sport, and without the athletes, it's nothing.

The notion that the club is the fans is very romantic, but I like to think that we're more like the soul of a team.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:31   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeypuncher
you do realize that without the players... You and I are just watching the grass grow every week. it's a sport, and without the athletes, it's nothing.
players you can find everywhere, but supporters? the first ones are paid, the second ones pay.
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:57   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
players you can find everywhere, but supporters? the first ones are paid, the second ones pay.
Greatest post of all time
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:06   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
players you can find everywhere, but supporters? the first ones are paid, the second ones pay.

A very romantic notion indeed. Compare the number of professional footballers on the planet to the number of fans on the planet. I don't need the exact numbers to tell you that the opposite is true. The world is literally littered with supporters. Players that they'll pay to watch are far rarer.
You're right that the fans pay. However, they pay when they feel like it.
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