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World Football For other football that's not related to Depor. For example: the Primera División, Segunda División A, Segunda División B, the Champions League, EURO 2008, the World Cup 2010, Italy, England, Germany, Turkey etc.

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Old 20-09-2013, 20:46   #16
Iztok
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I am not arguing the salary cap ratio, they probably calculated that quite realisticaly. The problem is that there is such a gap, which has been artifically produced by La Liga especially with the TV rights distribution, so that they created 2 teams that turn as much money around as the other 18 combined.

La liga is a clear demonstration how the rich get filthy rich and the rest get poorer. Considering Atletico and Valencia's inability to service the debt properly there is a league of 2 and than a 1000m cliff with all the rest looking at those 2 from a frogs point of view. Simply the quality of the league is destroyed this way and it makes me sick of the attitude that is shown. That is not what football should be about.
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Old 23-09-2013, 10:19   #17
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I completely agree with Iztok.


To Kalman, it's true that Madrid and Barça have won the most of the titles, but never this way. It hasn't been always this way. Never in the history there was such difference between them and the rest of teams than nowadays.

I know you love tables and numbers:
http://www.rankinghistorico.es/decad..._completa.html

Summarizing:

Best teams by decades, ordered by points achieved in percentage (to can compare rightly Ligas with different number of teams (10,12,14,16,18,20,22) and points per win (2,3)):

20's and 30's: Athletic Bilbao 66.1%, Madrid 63.9%, Barça 56.4%.

40's: Valencia 63.6%, Atlético Madrid 61.9%, Barça 61.3%, Athletic Bilbao 58.2%, Madrid 57%, Sevilla 55%.

50's: Barça 69.7%, Madrid 69%, Athletic Bilbao 61.3%, Atlético Madrid 56.5%, Valencia 55.8%, Sevilla 55.3%.

60's: Madrid 75.2%, Atlético Madrid 61.5%, Barça 61.2%, Zaragoza 56%, Valencia 53.8%, Athletic 52.8%.

70's: Madrid 66.1%, Barça 63.2%, Atlético Madrid 59.9%, Valencia 54.5%, Real Sociedad 54.4%, Athletic Bilbao 53.3%.

80's: Madrid 73%, Barça 67.1%, Atlético Madrid 60.9%, Athletic Bilbao 59.2%, Real Sociedad 57.6%,

90's: Barça 71.6%, Madrid 66.6%, Deportivo 60.9%, Valencia 58%, Atlético Madrid 55.7%,

2000's: Madrid 74.7%, Barça 71.9%, Valencia 62.5%, Sevilla 59%, Deportivo 57%, Villarreal 55.7%

2010's: Madrid 91.2%, Barça 88.7%, Valencia 62.6%, Atlético Madrid 54.1%. (2010/11 & 2011/12)

Madrid, in their best moments with Di Stefano, Puskas, Gento, Amancio, etc, had a 69% average in the 50's and a 75% in the 60's. The dominating Madrid of the 80's, with Butragueño, Michel, Hugo Sanchez, had a 73%. The galatic Madrid of Ronaldo, Figo, Zidane, Raúl, Roberto Carlos had a 74.7% average.
The great Barça of Kubala and Luis Suarez in the 50's had a 69.7%. The dominating Barça of the 90's, with Stoichkov, Koeman, Laudrup, Guardiola, Romario, had a 71.6%.
And even in those conditions, other teams were able to compete with them with dignity, and even winning some titles occasionally.

But now this has changes completely. If we add also the results of 2012/13, in this decade both Barça and Madrid are getting about the 90%, sth never seen before.


Another interesting table with all the podiums of La Liga and number of points, in which you can see that not always Madrid/Barça were 1st/2nd, and never with such differences like recent years.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori..._Espa%C3%B 1a

In fact, I'm just discovering, surprisingly, that NEVER, in the history of La Liga, Madrid and Barça had occupied the 2 first positions of La Liga during more than 2 consecutive years. Not until now, in these recent years...

During the 73 first Ligas, the partnership Madrid/ Barça managed to be 1st/2nd in 19 times, only the 26%. They dominated being 1st/2nd during 2 consecutive years only 5 times: 1953/54 & 1954/55, 1958/59 & 1959/60, 1966/67 & 1967/68, 1985/86 & 1986/87 and 1991/92 &1992/93.

It was not until 2004/05 when they were 1st/2nd during 3 consecutive years, for the first time in the history. That 3 years row was interrupted in 2007/08, with Villarreal 2nd position. Since then, 5 consecutive seasons with Barça/Madrid dominating. A row never seen before, and it seems that even will grow up for several years more. Boooooooooo!

Last edited by Blue_Nation : 23-09-2013 at 10:42.
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Old 23-09-2013, 11:07   #18
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nice, Xosé! but this is just part of those tendencies spreading Europe-wide, started with Arsenal winning the PL un-defeated, following with Chelsea's record of 95 points on 38 games, or Inter making a 97 points season and Juventus also won Serie A un-defeated.

I surely miss times, when Depor, Sevilla, Athletic, Osasuna and Tenerife gave Madrid a hell in their stadiums, when Valencia, Betis or Atletico gave their everything to beat Barca, but times are changing. At least Soci usually takes points away from Barca.
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Old 23-09-2013, 11:24   #19
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Wow, fascinating analyse Blue Nation, you really showed the problem in numbers.
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Old 23-09-2013, 14:08   #20
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forgot to add the last season of Bayern in Bundesliga
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Old 23-09-2013, 15:13   #21
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Yes, maybe it's just a direct consequence of the modern football.
Tbh, I don't know very much about the rest of the leagues, but surely nowhere the situation is as prominent as La Liga this 5 last years.
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Old 24-09-2013, 07:07   #22
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I follow the other leagues, not as close as La Liga, but if you look at the last maybe 5 years in sequence, you can see that nowhere is the difference between the top club or two clubs and the rest so big as it is in La Liga. Yes there are years where a single big team destroys the opposition, but never are those years in sequence and with the same actors.

And we all know that the TV rights distribution is nowhere so injust as it is in La Liga, which is one big chunk of the budget that could and should be distributed evenly through the league to keep the quality. Big teams have no problem in bringing money in from other sources - markenting, merchandising, tickets, etc. so they will still have a much bigget budget then the modest clubs.
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Old 24-09-2013, 08:13   #23
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You should publish those figures online, Xose. Excellent forensic detective work
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Old 24-09-2013, 10:02   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iztok
I follow the other leagues, not as close as La Liga, but if you look at the last maybe 5 years in sequence, you can see that nowhere is the difference between the top club or two clubs and the rest so big as it is in La Liga. Yes there are years where a single big team destroys the opposition, but never are those years in sequence and with the same actors.
I should accept the criticism of La Liga more easy, but I can't take the part, that other leagues are better:

Lyon won 7 champs in a row in France. The last 12 Serie A champs were won by 3 clubs (Juve, Milan, Inter). Since the Premier League having been established, in the last 21 seasons 5 teams have won it, but only 3 have won more than once, and MUFC won alone more than all the other clubs together. Bundesliga became Scotland (or Spain), it has been either won by either Bayern or Borussia in the last 4 seasons with absolute point records.

I have read good Daily Mail articles about the crisis of English Premier League recently, that I link to the English topic. Normally I used to laugh on these articles, as I don't consider neither the Spanish, nor the English football is in depression. Simply you can't race with a Trabant/Minardi/Caterham against a Ferrari/Red Bull/McLaren... Every champs produces its giants.

And I write it once more: I firstly recognised the difference between giants and mid-table teams in the English PL, 8-10 years ago, when those 85-90-95 points appeared there, while Madrid winning champs with only 76 and 78 points back then.
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Old 24-09-2013, 10:58   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
as I don't consider neither the Spanish, nor the English football is in depression.

I liked that one Kalman, which is what comes in my mind as well, when discussing about "crisis" in EPL, or La Liga, at times that all over Europe there are endless clubs going to dissolution due to debts, when the 40M Poland can't produce one competitive club, etc...

As for where the "crisis" among the giants is worse, the result of a mid-table EPL team, against a Spanish giant away for EL duing the week, speak for this
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Old 24-09-2013, 11:18   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggeorg
As for where the "crisis" among the giants is worse, the result of a mid-table EPL team, against a Spanish giant away for EL duing the week, speak for this
that was tough for me (or ambivalent as I can support a Welsh team as much as Valencia), but Greg wrote, that everything was decided by a 13th minute red-card.
But money is surely on Islanders' side, not to mention the general economical situation in Spain, so I consider I should get used to this kind of results in the nearest future. The real containder for EPL is the Bundesliga.
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Old 24-09-2013, 11:39   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepHun
that was tough for me (or ambivalent as I can support a Welsh team as much as Valencia), but Greg wrote, that everything was decided by a 13th minute red-card.
But money is surely on Islanders' side, not to mention the general economical situation in Spain, so I consider I should get used to this kind of results in the nearest future. The real containder for EPL is the Bundesliga.

jaja, i was joking of course! Those games could go each way, and one play (like a red card or an early goal) can define the game. The returing leg could easily end with 0-3 as well.


Btw, Xose's analysis was brilliant. I think a major factor is also the champions league money, as very few clubs could get the group place every single season (only Barca and Madrid from La Liga).
For every other team, investing a lot is very risky as this can result in a Depor-situation.

Uefa actually divides football with that c.l policy (apart from corruption within each country of course).
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Old 24-09-2013, 13:32   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggeorg
Uefa actually divides football with that c.l policy
that came into my mind, but not (just) for Spain, as England had a giant 4 for years (MUFC, Che, Ars, Pool) until City had a brainless investor (football makes no money ), France had 2 giant CL-starters (OM, OL), now this has changed with the Parisiens (and Monaco) bought by some money-bags, while in Italy Milan and Inter have been fix starters for years, after Juve's falling down to Serie B.
While in England, Villa, Everton or NUFC has no realistic chance to compete in CL, low-budget Sociedad is there.

On the other hand for Soci or Villarreal (or Depor) 25M extra income from CL is huge, but for European giants it does not even count. But of course there is the TV and marketing incomes based on the CL participation, extra matches with 80.000 spectators etc. So still UEFA's CL policy can help the grow the differences.
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Old 26-09-2013, 10:14   #29
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nice penalty for RMCF
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Old 26-09-2013, 14:35   #30
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It was really shameful. Poor Elche! Madrid played horrible, and Elche really deserved at least 1 point. I've seen a lot of robberies for Madrid and Barça in the history, but this surely was one of the most scandalous and evident I've never seen.

If it wasn't enough with the unfair TV money distribution or the salary cap, or the lot of millions they make with publicity, shirts, etc, or having the best players of the world, Madrid and Barça still needing yet the big support of the referees to win vs very much modest teams.

Shame!
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