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Old 12-07-2010, 12:50   #976
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Jimmy made it to the final
That's devotion!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR7FE...layer_embedded
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:52   #977
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Feli, I consider you an old and wise man and would like to keep that final aspect intact! LOL

As I wrote, I've had my final say here. History will tell whether this final and winner will be remembered positively.
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Old 12-07-2010, 13:03   #978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggeorg
Jimmy made it to the final
That's devotion!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR7FE...layer_embedded
what a miss from so close
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Old 12-07-2010, 13:05   #979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon
Then we have a different opinion, because a dive IMO means going down on purpose whether there's physical contact or not... 8-)....

I wonder how you have come up with your definition that a player can provoke a "correct" decision by the referee with a dive. If Heitinga slightly puts a hand on Iniesta's shoulder and he drops down like his heart has stopped pumping, that's faking an not fair play IMO.

The provocateur is the one making the foul Leon, not the one who get's fouled and then goes down. And in the instance you mention, it depends on if Heitinga just "slightly puts a hand on Iniesta's shoulder" or if he gives him a pull that would give a disadvantage in any way to Iniesta. So basically, if Iniesta honestly feels like he's been fouled, then going down isn't a dive (and exageration maybe but not a dive). If however, Iniesta went down just because he felt something brush his shoulder, then I'd agree it was a dive.

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Originally Posted by Leon
Rik, if you admit that the Spanish players were diving but in the same sentence, you downgrade it, it sums it up for me. You probably don't think it's worth mentioning.

You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say again Leon. I'm still waiting to hear where I said Iniesta was smart for diving and getting Heitinga a red card. And I have no idea whatsoever, how saying that Spain shouldn't be treated equally as guilty as Holland is downgrading diving, especially given my definition of the word. I just don't think that going down easily when fouled (or even if not) should be treated as kung fu kicking people with studs up, stamping on peoples feet/legs or coming through the back of people like a steam train. One causes mild annoyance whilst the other could potentially wreck careers.

The lack of consistancy and hypocrisy of Howard Webb was summed up with the 2 kicking the ball away instances. Robben is offside, hears the whistle, stops and then kicks the ball past Cassillas out of frustration. Robbens gets away without a yellow card. Some minutes later, Xavi does the exact same thing, hears the whistle and deliberately kicks the ball away. Yellow card
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Old 12-07-2010, 13:25   #980
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nice pictures and funny modificated videos.
http://szily.blog.hu/2010/07/12/hogy..._mikroblogokon
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Old 12-07-2010, 15:15   #981
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Rik, I try to paint you another picture than Spain being the clean and magnificent team you wanted them to be....

Before we get discussion nr.500 on how Van Bommel (on several occasions) and De Jong (one time) misbehaved: I already recognized that what they did was absurd and both could have been sent off. It's one example of how bad this referee was.

I’m flabbergasted you write this:

Quote:
So basically, if Iniesta honestly feels like he's been fouled, then going down isn't a dive.

You've really cornered yourself when defending the behavior of Spanish players. So now it's ok to dive if a player 'feels he's being fouled'. Oh boy....... We’re going to have 23 referees on the pitch and diving suddenly has become acceptable. I’d like to hear Hari on this, who’s a lover of clean football.

Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp24pQ2URJ4

Van Bommel doesn't touch Iniesta. Iniesta makes theatre. He dives, grabs his legs. A wonder medicine cures his injury. He steps up and gives Van Bommel a push. How small this might be, there's no ball in play and could/should have been a red card. And now watch Van Bommel with his theatre. That's football in 2010 apparently, and includes your team and your players, Rik.

I wonder with all these discussions, why Webb's biggest and most decisive blunder isn't mentioned and that is giving Spain the ball instead of the Dutch team near the end. Sneijders's shot hits a Spanish player and the whole stadium sees it, but one person doesn't...

As others persons write here:

Quote:
Last free kick of sniejder during extra time reflected the arm of Spain player...but it wouldn't be corner kick?? and after that Spain scored! If the dutch could have the corner, thing may not turn out like this
Quote:
Before the goal firstly Torres wanted to assist Iniesta, and at that moment the Catalan was on off-side... A deffender cleared the ball to Fabregas, but the lines-man should have waved, Webb should have whistled.
Sorry that I thought it was you who labeled Iniesta ‘smart’. Of course, it was our Belgian friend who did that…..

Quote:
I just don't think that going down easily when fouled (or even if not) should be treated as kung fu kicking people with studs up, stamping on peoples feet/legs or coming through the back of people like a steam train. One causes mild annoyance whilst the other could potentially wreck careers.

I agree with most of that. But I don’t accept in football that we justify one behavior with the other. Again, the Dutch started kicking and fouling.

But if that’s your opinion, I find it curious that Melo’s attack on Robben hasn’t been commented by you at this forum. Even so if our Belgian friend openly writes he was hoping for more damage…. Gregory, are you 100% sane?

And it’s easy to pick the case of both Robben and Xavi kicking the ball away. Every case is different. The first, if I remember well, was with the score 0-0 and Robben already in the books, and the second with 0-1?

At least you’re not a completely black/white thinker as our befriended Feli….
Dear me..... The Spanish flag must have completely blocked his sight and mind!

Villa, slapping against Honduras, suspension? Anyone? Goal against Portugal? Offside? Anyone?

Villar??? I should have listened to you, DepHun......

And now the hypocrisy of 7 Catalan players winning it for the Spanish team...

Allright, I couldn't let go all of this. But I promise I eat my laptop if I reply here once more!

I don't agree much with Cruyff. But this time I do, when he calls Spain the deserved winner, the Dutch game being brutal and harsh and he has nothing positive to say about Webb.

Last edited by Leon : 12-07-2010 at 15:32.
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Old 12-07-2010, 15:28   #982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon
I don't want to spoil the party for the people who supported the Spanish team. Overall they did more in this match than the Dutch team to win it and had a more positive attitude.

And it's kind of difficult to have discussions between Dutch people and people who support from Spain from the heart, because people always tend to see things from a positive aspect from their side.

The funniest thing remains the frustration of Belgians here: it's a poor and sad attitude. I wish your team all the best and hopefully you make it into a tournament one day (it'll be difficult with Turkey and Germany), but you guys certainly never played attractive football ... ... Even N-Korea, Honduras and N-Zealand can make it! It remains just a game. And it's never good the be jealous.

So I say it again: the Dutch were pretty lucky with referees and ugly goals to reach the final. Van Bommel and De Jong could/should have been sent off for rough play. Now Rik calls it 'smart' when Iniesta dives and provokes a red card, as the Spanish were diving all final, like players as Robben have done all tournament. Again, it depends on the glasses you wear.

This tournament will go down into history because of the referee incidents and countries like Netherlands, Brazil and Spain who stepped down their offensive game. There's not a team in the world which plays attacking football anymore. Neither Germany, they invented a magnificent counterattacking system. Maybe Chile...

My point remains that this final got the referee it deserved: a very poor one who couldn't control the teams. And I'm not saying he was against the Dutch. He simply wasn't prepared for it... 14 yellow cards means you can't handle it.

Maybe it had to do with our friend Villar, who also didn't want to suspend Villa in the group phase for slapping an opponent??? It remains a dirty and dictorial organization, FIFA.
No offense, but this post put a smile on my face So yes, I have a natural dislike of Holland But why do you think that is? If Holland played like they played in the European Cup two years ago, I still would've been hoping for them to get knocked out, but I would've had no problem acknowledging that they deserved it.

Anyway, first of all, you have a seriously warped view about the concept diving. Iniesta got past Heitinga, who deemed it necessary to still put his arm on him, Iniesta felt it and immediately decided to go down, which was completely logical. That's not diving, that's experience. Diving is when you see your opponent coming at you, and before he reaches you, you already decided you're going to fake being hit and dive. And there's the difference with Spain and Holland. Spain applies the first form I mentioned a lot, which is plain smart and logical, Holland applied pure diving constantly this tournament. And when Spaniards fall to the ground, they just... fall to the ground. When the Dutch start diving, they roll around on the ground about five times in a row. Thát is what pisses me off.

I have no idea why you're bringing up Belgium in here, but well, thanks for stating the obvious, I guess

The fact is Leon, pretty much EVERYONE who felt no special bond with neither Spain nor Holland, was rooting for Holland to lose. Why do you think that is?? Holland played a disgusting tournament, simple as that. Robben, Van Persie, Heitinga and especially Van Bommel are all some of the most annoying players to watch on the planet right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon
Spain were the luckiest with crucial decisions, with the Villa-incident against Honduras, the curious match against Paraguay, the offside goal against Portugal, the dubious decision with Iniesta's goal. But hey, that's football nowadays.
All I can say here, is are you serious? Had Villa just slapped him out of nowhere, I would agree with you and say it's a red. However, that Honduras guy started it by standing on his foot like a moron. Since it would be very light to give both of them red there, I'd say both of them yellow. But no one saw it, so whatever. Against Paraguay, it was just a crappy ref. Paraguay missed their penalty, then Spain got one, they scored it, but had to take it again, and then Spain were denied another clear penalty. So I can't quite see how Spain was in the advantage there. The goal against Portugal was indeed doubtful, however, at both passes they seemed to be standing on the same line, so I get that. Finally, you're bringing up Spain's goal against Holland, which was completely legal and nowhere in the build-up of that goal was there an offside.

Want me to bring up the list of the ref's favors to Holland? Like the two invalid goals against Uruguay? There's a lot more I can put here as well. Come on, even the Dutch fans in the Belgian studio yesterday said they were a bit embarrassed by those fouls in the second half

Quote:
Before the goal firstly Torres wanted to assist Iniesta, and at that moment the Catalan was on off-side... A deffender cleared the ball to Fabregas, but the lines-man should have waved, Webb should have whistled.
Nope, that wasn't offside. They showed it afterwards in the Belgian studio, and even then Iniesta was still onside. So again, you've got nothing.

Quote:
Last free kick of sniejder during extra time reflected the arm of Spain player...but it wouldn't be corner kick?? and after that Spain scored! If the dutch could have the corner, thing may not turn out like this
In the first half, Spain should've gotten a corner, but didn't. Anyone remember that? I guess not, because Spain didn't let Holland score a goal after that. That was a seperate attack, Holland was fully organised when Spain was coming, you seriously don't have the right to bring that up. Especially since you scored several goals because of things like that as well, except much more direct. Like the goal against Uruguay, where the ref should've whistled and given Van Bommel a red five seconds before the ball went in. Thát's a direct decision that influences the game, not the one of last night.

Last edited by deporiginal : 12-07-2010 at 15:40.
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Old 12-07-2010, 16:18   #983
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LMAO!! Leon, I respect you for the man I know you to be and this debate aside, that will never change but I have to say that I find your skewing of what is written and poor interpretation, very out of character. I just hope that once you get over this defeat, you can look back at the game without the blinkered glasses.

Clean and magnificent?? I already said that I wouldnt say Spanish players NEVER dived and I've been critical on several ocassions of the frustrating way Spain have played.

And I stand by my opinion that if you are fouled, then you have every right to go down. If the foul has disadvantaged you in anyway and the free kick is more advantagous than staying on your feet, then why not go down. You haven't asked to be fouled.

The example you showed is an absolute classic. I saw the replays last night and just watched them again and Van Bommel stamps on Iniesta's foot. On a decent TV with a decent reception, it's clear to see. If you recorded the game and can pause it, try doing it and watch where the ball is and where Van Bommel's right foot is.
You're right about the theatre bit and I certainly include Spain and La Liga in that, just as I always have but you obviously don't read that many posts here.
With regards to Melo, I saw the stamp, thought it was a terrible incident and to be honest, was pretty sure I commented on it but just looked back and saw that it was on facebook and not here. (July 2 4.30pm if you want to question my footballing ethics further )
With regards to the decision not to give a corner, then of course you're right that they should have had a corner but the biggest decision to get wrong??? Are you serious??? If Holland had been down to 9 men after 45 minutes, we most likely wouldn't have been in any extra time to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon
And it’s easy to pick the case of both Robben and Xavi kicking the ball away. Every case is different. The first, if I remember well, was with the score 0-0 and Robben already in the books, and the second with 0-1?

You're correct with your memory but I'm curious as to why you think the rules and consequences should be changed according to the scoreline and if someone had already been booked or not. Spain were trying to go forward and win the game at 0-0 when Robben kicked the ball away. Holland were trying to go forward and get back in the game when Xavi kicked the ball away. Xavi was rightly booked but Robben was let off the exact same offence because he had already been yellow carded. Where's the justice in that.
Villa? Yeah he could have seen red for the slap against Honduras and although it would have been harsh, technically it would have been correct. No mention by you of the stamp on his foot beforehand?

And finally on a positive note, I think you, me and Johan Cruyff are all in complete agreement on what he said

EDITED TO ADD: I'm done on this subject now. This debating is stopping me celebrating a victory which I may never exerience again for the rest of my life.
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Old 12-07-2010, 17:11   #984
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I’ve just some final comments to make here before I eat my laptop…

And there especially dedicated to Gregory.

My friend, this icon sums it up when I read your posts at this Forum….

You ask me the question why you dislike Holland and indicate that even with good football you like to see the team being kicked out. Furthermore, you ask me why I bring up that you’re from Belgium. You’re being quite honest with saying your anti-Holland. But apparently that has nothing to do with football. That sounds like someone at this Forum who disliked everything that has to do with the English.

I question your intelligence.

To me, you’re the typical member of this Forum who has made this a negative place. You’re posts about this subject seem to be based on hate and anti-feelings and I feel for you. It must be difficult to carry those feelings.

Intentionally going down isn’t diving according to you, but experience…. Does this really need a comment?

You know why I bring up you’re from Belgium. You’re probably in your anti-years and it’s so simplistic to take a neighboring country as victim. If you’re so clearly biased, why enter a discussion? Isn’t it enough for you to enjoy a loss of Holland, as it’s probably the best thing which has happened to you recently?

Netherlands, second of the world….. Belgium?
I will give you the past 20 years to come up with an example!

I’m glad you’ve spoken to the world population and conclude that every neutral person was hoping for a Holland loss.

Annoying players? What have Van Persie en Heitinga to do in your list?
Dutch players qualify for your list with every step they make.. Oh, watch out! Gregory now dislikes you!

Villa hits an opponent in the face, and you don’t really care.

How Spain were given an advantage against Paraguay? Because a Paraguay goal was disallowed and the reason still isn’t clear to me.

I’m not talking about offside at Spain’s goal, which it could have been. I’m talking about possession of the ball which Spain never should have had.

Two invalid goals of the Dutch against Uruguay? Bring them on.

Dutch fans in a Belgian studio… Really, that argument of you convinced me!

The fact that you don’t have anything to say about Iniesta’s push and you wanting Melo to break something at Robben, sums it up for me what kind of guy you are.

This podium is only yours from now on to vent all your frustrations.
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Old 12-07-2010, 17:24   #985
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Ok, it's enough. I will close this thread.
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